Sunday, February 3, 2008
If Jesus Were President...
If Jesus were running for President and He was campaigning all across America, what issues would He choose to emphasize and what would be His approach? If you talk about the death penalty, then back it up with scripture and reason. I think you guys might be surprised at the challenge of deciding what He would do as President. Let's all get involved in this one!
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Palzo-I am sure Christ would have a myriad of issues to address, but I think one thing in particular would be the financial situation of our people and government. God mentions finances in scriptures 2,000 times according to crown mistry! When I think about that it makes me open my eyes to the fact that God is detailed on how we save, tithe, budget, and spend our resources everyday. On the government level I think the national deficit would be addressed. We currently have a deficit of 5.1 trillion with the Chinese and Japanese owning over 1 trillion of this. I am not going to go into the economics of why this is bad other than the fact that being a debtor nation is warned about by God. It is sad that people look at our government and say how poorly they use resources when they are a direct reflection of the american people themselves. The average household carries credit card debt of over 9k. Check out Proverbs 22:7 or Duet. 28:44, God talks about the borrower being the slave to the lender. Debt with no discpline to save is only growing, as we teach our kids to buy now and pay later. Prov.21:20 states "In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish mans devours all he has". Tithing - is at an all time low...( I had to search around to find this stat but I figured since people were digging deeper into debt they were not also giving more). I am sure some christians would tell me that tithing is an old testament law and is not mentioned specifically in the new testament. I would have to agree, but we can't sit there and search God on this and claim old testament laws don't apply. Read Malachi 3:6-12, it speaks of God not changing and Israel robbing God. Most of our paychecks are more in one month than most other people in foreign countries receive in a year. I think Christ would say "do you think I blessed you financially more so than all other nations to spend 100% of my income I gave you on yourselves? Where is your compassion for helping others who are less fortunate?" I agree with Jace thompson and Ted Kitchens when they say tithing is basic christianity 101. Unfortunately it is decreasing as people get themselves in deeper financial trouble. I get sick when people tell me money is not everything and God doesn't care about money...my question is why the heck did he mention it 2,000 times! I agree money is not everything, but as christians to not take ownership and be a good steward of those finances is crap. I wonder, if they say money is the biggest disagreemnet in marriage, is that because of our own unwise living against what God says about finances? I think Christ would look at us and be astonished that he has blessed us so much financially, and we are stressed about money on a daily basis, and 99% of people don't have a clue how to handle their own finances, even though he has laid it out as plain as day. Just so everybody knows I put myself in that 99% category. Bottom line is if God mentioned money that much and blessed us in this area above all others then I think we would be held to a higher standard. Luke 12:48, "Everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded"
Well said, my man! I hope this gains traction as people contemplate the consequences of these issues. Thanks for the time and sharing of insightful wisdom. Bravo!
I have been out of town, so sorry for not posting. My initial thought was that Jesus would be campaigning for the widows and orphans and after reading Grant's awesome post I think it goes right along. We will be judged as Christians, not for our sin, but for what we DID that was WORTHWHILE here on earth. Part of us receiveing (or NOT receiving) rewards (crowns, the words "well done my good and faithful servant, etc.) is what kind of steward we were with what we were given. It says each will be judged according to what he was given (talent, skills, and yes MONEY). So ... everyone reading this post, no matter what state you are in financially (me included!) are more than likely will be in the top 3% of financial blessing. Hard to believe, I know, as we sit here and compare ourselves to Oprah, Bono, Donald Trump. But, it is the truth. I don't know about you all, but that's a little scary. The vision of standing before Jesus and Him saying, well, Crystal, ok, you were in the top 5% of people who had the most financial blessing of ALL TIME and let's see how you did ...
Not sure about yall, but that thought makes me very disappointed in myself. So, I completely agree with Grant that what we are doing with money would be a key issue. BUT, more importantly, Jesus would be campaigning for the poor, less fortunate, and all the persecuted people of this world. He is a relational God and cares deeply for all. I doubt very seriously that he would even mention his position on the death penalty. There are far more profound issues at stake ... like the souls of MANY.
Oh, and, hopefully all here are in agreement that tithing is essential. I haven't had conversations with people that did not feel this way, but hey, I am always open for debate.
Well, I mentioned the death penalty because I hear most christians saying God would never be about killing and also about rehabilitation or losing an opportunity to know Him. To me it would be an issue He was most passionate about because He sentenced His own son to death after judging sin. Jesus did everything right and was judged on sin alone. I say God is obviously for the death penalty and it is close to His heart.
Just a little devil's advocate for you guys.
A few thoughts ...
Did God sentence His son, or did the Jews?
I think God cares far more about the Death of Souls than physical death, as He will handle Judgement at His seat.
In our current system, sinners are put in charge of determining who lives and dies. Isn't this His job? Even if Jesus were President, He wouldn't make the decision.
Isn't killing an innocent man or woman sinful?
Bring it on Paul (lol). Seriously, I like to be challenged on this. It's funny you say you hear lots of people who are against the death penalty. All Christians are Republicans at rebirth right? I always feel like the outsider with my views. Even my own husband didn't know that's how I felt until the primary started :)
I started laughing from the start. This is fun.
I would contend that God chose the cross and went there purposefully and willingly with or without the Jews. He simply ordained them the privilege, so to speak.
The wages of sin is death; the death of souls. Therefore physical death is far less important deeming it irrelevant as something to fight for another's rights to continue.
Either God is sovereign or He's not. If He is then He puts those sinners in the proper places to make those decisions. A paradox I guess. If Jesus were president I believe He would make the decision because He already knows if the man is innocent or guilty. He even knows if the man will one day accept his redemption. Therefore, Jesus can easily make the decision and be perfect in doing so.
Still having more fun than making sense.
I love this political crap...it's so stinkin seedy and shady. Right up my alley. Peace, Crystal.
hmmm, the death penalty - who am i to decide who lives or dies? However, i don't have a solution to the monitary burden and overpopulated prisons - i am however afriad you guys are about to throw politics out there - might be interesting paul - pete
Petey, I would answer you by saying you are a child of God with the mind of Christ, annoited with the Holy Spirit, commanded by God to bring glory to His name by making tough decisions like this. You are an heir to the throne of the Almighty Living God with the full power of Christ enabled and expected to further His kingdom with the cost of your own life. That's who you are and who we all are as Christians.
I speak to myself more than anyone simply because I more than anyone, forget this truth many times andget all caught up in my sin or my personal holiness. Sometimes I just need to get over myself, realize who I am and who I belong to and go for it. I limit myself by myself so to say. Anyways, I just think we are commanded to make such decisions and battle against those who would secularize our society, and more importantly, our children. We should not only discuss these issues in fun, but lead the people in presenting with courage, faith and respect the only gospel that saves! I'm an armchair political quarterback. Dang it, it's frustrating. When will I dare, as you all, to get off my high horse and stand for more than personal gain and rhetoric?
Hey guys sorry its been so long since ive posted. Anyways ive been reading the death penalty stuff and its got me thinking of where i stand on the issue. I've been reading some scripture about the issue and I think God makes it clear that He would approve of the death penalty. When it comes to who killed Jesus, i agree with paul when He said that God purposefully choose the cross and just ordained for who would carry it out. I believe this partly because when Jesus is talking with Pilate at His trial Pilate tells Him that he has the authority to release Him, and Jesus says the only authority he has is that which the Father has given him.
On to the death penalty though, I have two verses that im going to put up the first one is from Revelations 13:10-"If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints." Im only using New Testament verses because I know the argument that the Old Testament was only used before Christ. However, I think the new testament clearly supports the use of the death penalty.
The apostle Paul says in Acts 25:11-"If, then, I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar." Paul himself says that if he was guilty of what he was being accused of then he would not object to being put to death. I know its hard to think that who are we to judge? But like Paul says we are new creations with the glory and rightousness of Christ. This process should be extremely thorough with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, but just like the two guilty people hanging on both sides of Christ were put to death, the more important fact is that they still had a chance to put their faith in Christ, and that who knows if that man who did would have if he was not hanging on the cross next to Jesus. Anyways just my thoughts.....so what do you think? Lets keep the debate going!
At this point in my heart I just can't accept the death penalty ... BUT, I really appreciate you going to the Truth Brent. I will continue to challenge myself on this issue.
Paul, I totally agree about secularism taking over the world. I was just having a discussion with a good friend from Wilderness. She is struggling with believing that God would have her Buddist friend go to hell. One thing I told her (not about her Buddist friend, but in general) is that we first have to make a decision as to what we think about the Bible. If, we choose to not believe that the Bible is complete truth (every single word) then all we can do is continue to seek God more through the way He chose to reveal himself the most clearly. If we are on the fence as many many Christians are, then we will continue to make up our own religion and accept the parts we want to believe and refute the parts we dont, saying ... "oh, that was old testament, or the i think God means this". If you are with me in that the Bible is complete truth, then I would go further with what I think you were getting at Paul. We are truly called to fight against evil and fight for good. I think we have a hard time hating sin but loving the sinner. Isn't that what Jesus did and does daily? How tough is this. God calls us to a very high standard. So, lately, I have been asking God to reveal to me ... how can I hate evil and sin, but love the evil doer, the sinner wholeheartedly? Gee ... I think we have become a nation that has become increasingly lazy in the name of tolerance. I am so sick of being tolerant. So, I will throw this out to all of you in the blogoshere ... how do you specifically hate sin but love the sinner in your life? I can't wait to hear how my brothers and sisters navigate this ...
OK. I am going to do some homework on the death penalty, as much as I may not want to know the truth, I know how important it is to see what God has to say on certain issues.
Oh, I forgot to comment about Petey's comment. This is a common misconception. Just FYI, it actually costs MORE to kill someone than to leave them in prision for life. I will get my resource if you all want to see for yourself. (This is from a political standpoint and I know doesn't qualify as a GOD based argument) So, Petey, it looks like you and I will have an even tougher time making our stance align with God's stance on this :)
More and the Death Penalty. There is no doubt that scripture speaks about people being put to death. I guess my take is that this specific issue was abolished once Jesus himself died on the cross. Jesus views life as sacred and while he did not come to abolish the law, he fulfilled it. Furthermore, the woman who committed adultry comes to mind. In Leviticus it says that the adulterer and the adulturess should be put to death, yet Jesus finds a creative way (writing in the sand, taking the focus off of the woman, etc.) and she is set free. At that point I realize that her physical death does not matter as much as the new "life" He has given her.
I also note that this example does not show that Jesus is AGAINST the death penalty, but rather sees it as a very last resolution. I think we could take note of Jesus and come up with far more creative ways to handle these istances.
Also, to me, it seems that there is far more punnishment in a life locked away, than a needle in the arm. (this is just my thought, no scripture to back this one up :) )
... i'm trying ;)
Christ set up the government and allows the government to remain…our government is to know the Justice and Wrath of God. We are to primarily be grace, but our justice system is not. We are to know both the kindness and severity of our Lord. ( Rom 11:22)
Check out Romans13:1-7 God has set up the government to be Justice…verse 4…Capitol Punishment was not abolished under grace
love to hear back...
hey crystal thanks for commenting. im just going to address the question that you asked earlier about how Jesus hated the sin but loved the sinner. i just got done watching a video with mark driscoll and he was talking about how this quote actually came from Ghandi and he also gave the quote from Psalms 5:5 "The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity."
so when it comes to how do we love the sinner i would say we do it by how God did. he loves us through his son, and we should love others through his son as well. we should always see christ when we look upon the lost and this is the only way to truly love someone, because ultimately until we are created anew in christ we are sin. for a good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree produces bad fruit. the core of our being before we came to know christ was sin and evil. not that sin and ourselves our different but they were the same. that is why we are completely dead and need christ to save us.
God in all His mercy, love, and justice had to condemn us and judge our sins, but through christ we our new creatures with the rightousness of christ so that the old is gone and the new has come. that is the best way i love those who are lost, i see the hope of christ for that person. not that that person is really a good person underneath the sin but that they themselves are sin, but that christ still died and gave them the opportunity to have a new life.
I can't wait to respond to all this...very well done my friends, but I have to ask- Who in their right mind is voting for Obama and is it because you beeeeleeeev in change and hope and change and hope and hope and change?
I wondered the same thing.....I would love to hear the argument on why Obama is the best guy for the job.
This is in response to JT. How do we then explain governments in this world that are completely unjust? Are we not fighting a war in a nation where there was a leader who murdered thousands of people? The bible is not black and white on this issue. Is it ok for America to sentence people to death, but not other countries? I'm just not sure. I hear people all the time talk about how God set up the government and that we are to obey its laws (give to caesar's what is caesars), BUT we are also called to fight against evil. A great example of this is slavery. Slavery was Legal and in fact, you would be thrown in jail for fighting against the oppression of blacks. I am not trying to compare the death penalty with slavery, but only bring up the notion what there are areas in our faith where there is black and white, but also grey. As Paul said, this is where a settled conviction stands and I believe it is wonderful, as the body, that we can debate these gray areas with prayer and research and a settled conviction into the heart of God and that it is plausable that two people who love and know Jesus as Lord can disagree on an issue and it be ok.
I love this topic! Thanks to everyone who has contribute!
Going back to the original question, I just dont feel that if Jesus were campaigning that he would even mention His stance on the death penalty. I think that He would come up with creative and perfect solutions to every issue we face. He would repremand us for being poor stewards with monetary blessings, then teach us how to do the MOST good with what we have been given. He would lay out a plan for health care that every politician and economist in the world could never put together. He would find a way to protect our nation from our enemies and fight against the terror they live to bring and bring a sense of security to those in fear of that terror that a closed border policy could never supply. He would find a way for us to lend a hand to other governments (such as Mexico) and teach them how to stand on their own two feet using the strength he has given each of us through our creation and rebirth in His image. The truth is, I dont know what to think or believe anymore. I have read all the websites, listened to the debates, fought against the idelogy in my mind and tried to form an opinion based on self conviction, but I got nothin!
I'm with you Paul. I love shady politics!! And, there is nothing wrong with someone voting for Obama (and it wasn't me) ... you have officially scared them right off this blog and you should be ashamed ;) lol!
Thanks for taking the time to respond Crystal. Okay, I am not saying that ALL governments are good, holy, and righteous. But, I am saying that before we go to checking conviction the Bible does say that the governments are set up and controlled by God Himself (proverbs 21:1). Granted if someone is telling us to go and murder little children under the age of five…of course we do not do it b/c it is unbiblical. I’m just not convinced that this is a gray area. I don’t think people are any more or less “saved” for believing it or not but I still say that it is a black and white issue. Romans 13:1 says that “there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.” That means that God has given his creation the responsibility to be his hands…those that extend grace…but also justice. Governments are divine institutions. I do not believe that all governments are good and that at times, when they go contrary to the Bible, we should not follow suit. But, in Romans 13:4 says, “…for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.” God has said that it does not bear the sword (death- capitol punishment) for nothing. We must obey or else we may be subjected to the wrath of God…and it may result in physical and spiritual death. That is what makes grace so beautiful…b/c I should have been put to death numerous times already. Paul agrees in Acts 25:11, when he says that if convicted of deserving death than he will not flee or fight but be subjected to the government…even to death. I am not trying to say that if Jesus was president that he would make this a big priority, but the topic was raised. In fact I don’t think Jesus would actually do much, if anything, politically. He was more about changing the people…and the people in turn would change the institutions. Jesus changes the hearts of individuals…which in turn change society. But, I know that was not the point of the Paul’s prompt…his point was to drive us deeper into seeking the heart of God and to be the kind of Christians that know what it is they believe. Thanks for your heart Paul. I would love to hear your thoughts Crystal…they are respected by me and everyone else!
What should the relationship be between religion and government?
What about issues like prayer in public schools and the display of religious symbols on public property?
I promise to have substance soon...resting my tired (lazy) brain and enjoying all the information. Kinda like going to church and listening to others sing for a song or two. Please no derogatory remarks concerning my praise habits, unless it just makes you feel like a bigger person.
Whooooo voted for Hillary and Obama? Come on let's debate.
Are you conservative or liberal and why? Which issues do you feel strongest about?
ahhh religion and government! lets start with prayer in public school. this is a tough issue but im definetly for prayer in school. however what are we talking about here like a kid praying before a test or praying in front of a large group? but either way i think that they should have the right should they choose to. i know its a slippery slope with prayer and the public display of religious symbols because you will always have the argument of if you allow one you have to allow everyone else. i dont know im kind of confused on this topic i need to hear what everyone else has to say first, great topic though so lets hear "YOUR" take. yeah im talking to you!! so step up to the keyboard and dive in.
Had a conversation yesterday with a friend and took the opposite side on this issue. Here are a few things that came from it. I can't even begin to remember it all...trust me, it was GOOOT!
First of all God calls us to be holy as I am holy. I think we all agree that we are called to be like Christ. So my point is- why do you get to decide the stopping point. Is being like Christ going to Africa, tithing at church, loving your neighbor? Because loving your neighbor, to Jesus, meant to give His innocent life for them. Shouldn't we, those who so staunchly believe in the death penalty, be offering ourselves as sacrificial replacements for convicted felons. What a radical thought. Wasn't Jesus radical? He changed everything! I believe if Christians started acting like Jesus instead of talking like Jesus, we would have more people want to know Him. Radical Redemption would take place and God would be the hottest topic on everyone's tongue. The news of the martyrs would spread like wildfire across the world much faster than the missionaries.
Although not very articulate, I think you get my point. Also I tried to argue the point JT made just for the heck of it. I know he addressed most of this already, but this was the conversation. As far as laws of the land and the governments put in place by God, therefore God's instituions have sovereign authority argument, I offer this. Is America the only government God ordained, because we are His favorite? Oh yeah, and Israel? What about Sudaam? Did God put him in place to create his law and shouldn't we all just accept the horrible atrocities as government's rule. So far that would be the best argument for not going to war. If we, as Christians, believe God rules through His governments for whatever reasons, then we should not have tried to dismantle what God intended for His good, even if we don't understand it. Right? Who decides the magic number so to speak- what laws we fight for and against? We can't decide about the death penalty, so who has final say? Some other country thinks this or that, but you're conditioned to this culture so it seems strange to you, misguided, or even unbiblical according to all your interpretations. If God is sovereign and He controls government, and governments create laws, however barbaric or foreign to us, then how can we have it both ways? We must, against all understanding, trust God that over the great expanse of time and mystery all that is done is to ultimately bring God glory.
I'll be back, gotta go to church and listen to people worship:)
I love this. JT, I love so many parts of what you said and respect you challenging me. I especially love when you said this ... "He was more about changing the people…and the people in turn would change the institutions". You articulated my thoughts better than I could. I read that and say, YES and chuckled because we are arguing different points. I agree, of course, with Romans (and you JT and Paul) that God set up the governments and we are to obey its laws. Hence, I cannot decide that I really dont want to stop at red lights, or pay for gas, want Mia Grace to go to school, or show up for jury duty because I may or may not have a different idealogue. BUT, America is a democracy and in the true sense of the word, "of the people". This is where I think we miss the point. God gave His people the ultimate gift here on Earth and that is a part of himself. If we bear His image then in our circumstance, as Americans, we have a SAY in what our government is all about. He has given us the authority to make and change laws. A great victory is the abolishment of slavery. In this country we are innocent until proven guilty, and as Christians we know we are just all plain guilty. But, here I will argue my "its not black and white". If it were black and white, like the law, then no matter what the jury said, if you committ adultry, you are sentenced to death, if you murder, you die as well, etc. I will play a little devil's advocate. So, if God set up the government and its a black and white topic, then why is our government bascially set up for and by the people? Also, I am not convinced that by Paul stating that if he is to die by the sword, so be it, that His greater message is about the death penalty. I, in turn, if we are to be like Paul, would say, if I am put on trial and sentenced to death, well, so be it ... BUT that statement doesn't mean I am 100% for the death penalty.
Plus, something about sticking a guy with a needle and watching him go to sleep is just so cowardly ... if we are going to have it, why not let him fight for his life ... anyone? with a sword maybe? OR, how about we have a public stoning ... throw the first stone? Anyone?
Paul, I really liked you post. You came at it at all different angles. What you were saying about Saddamm is exactly what I was trying to articulate in one of my posts. That is why I just think that SOME, not ALL, topics are greyish. I mean, if we want to get really into it, its like a Calvinist (I am only referencing, as I believe more and more that I am one of them :) ) saying we shouldn't do ministry because God is soverign, or heck, why even pray, because it doesn't matter.
God, is just way more reltional that all this. I think exactly what we are doing here on the blog is what He desires. He has left some decisions up to us to see what we will do with it all. Why else would there be a Beheameth Seat? I mean, why reward His chosen for what they did on Earth if it all didn't really matter. Furthermore, I think that all this is meaningless unless we put it into action and that would be my challenge to all of us on this blog. Let's start putting all this heartfelt stuff into action and do something worthwhile. Too often, I seek answers and read and pray and leave messages on this blog only to look back and say, what have I done this week in the name of Jesus? What Kingdom work am I actually DOING? "show me faith without works?.." Anyway, tangent and not at all intended for anyone out there, all personal. And, not in anyway meant to say that what we are doing on here is worthless, bc I dont believe that to be true at all. More to come.
Thanks everyone.
YES to prayer in public schools and YES to religious symbols on public property.
I am an Independent, basically meaning I have no party affiliation. (I would equally vote for Republicans and Democrats)
I am conservative on moral issues, and trying to figure out where I am on the political ones.
Health Care, Education, Border Control ... all major issues to me.
Oh and JT, I get what you mean about going to the bible first before conviction. I was referring to who I would vote for and what stances God would take on all issues instead of forming my own religion based on what I want to believe.
You mentioned that if the government said to go and kill all children under 5, then of course we wouldn't. Why is a child's life more valuable than an adult? Did God not value ALL life as sacred?
I hope we dont get placed on a jury together :)
Seriously though, to Paul and JT and Brent (who have taken a stance) how would you all handle being on a jury?
(I wouldn't get selected as I can't really say I could ever be OK with sentencing someone to death)
I'd love to hear ... would you then use conviction? would you use the bible as reference, as in if it were a murder trial (which of course it would be) then you would vote for them to die bc its a black and white issue?
I just love reading new posts. That was great as usual, Crystal.
An idea about liberals from the author Jonah Goldburg suggests liberals are fascists due to all the government programs they insist on implementing. They may choose several "good" causes or simply causes that people have a difficult time opposing such as Green Week, banning trans fats, and other nanny laws. They create government programs for everything and when they don't work they create government programs to fix them. It's ridiculous how involved they want to be in our everyday lives. They want to spread around our money however they see fit.
Think about this as far as feelings and walking as a Christian; liberals are all about feelings by the core of their belief system. It's scary! Gay marriage- Hey, if it feels right do it...what can it really hurt? Legalize marijuana...why not? I'm liberal, it's not for me, but if you want to who am I to tell you not to? Sex and violence looks and feels like art to the liberal. Artsy liberals are all about feelings! Christian conservatives should be about truth and seeing the big picture. We should stand for something bigger than ourselves and understand that just because it feels good doesn't mean it's best. I heard someone say that doing good is one of greatest enemies as Cristians in light of doing what's best. I can really relate to that.
I would judge the case in all it's uniqueness. When the woman was brought to Jesus they were trying to trap him, so he he chose to spare her by extending grace and exposing the real perpetrators. Then God chose to blow a brother up in a field for lying about some cash. Lesson- don't mess with the Holy Spirit! God must make a gazillion tough choices a day and I would have to rely on all that experience while in court to be obedient when He spoke, no matter what my personal preference may be.
Awesome answer, thanks Paul. I would add that I am not SO closed minded that I would not be willing to listen and obey what God asked of me as well.
OK. I've been doing a lot of gabbing and not a lot of backing up besides the adulteress woman and a few others.
Here are a couple scriptures that led me to my stance on this.
1 Corint. 4
It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes,who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
Just a few quick comments:
1) Paul, who would you vote for and why? Why is Obama not a good candidate?
2) I am just getting back in touch with the blog and I have read all the posts here and I need a day or so to process and really establish where I stand
I have only recently become interested in politics/presidents/government and how that affects the world. So, forthcoming: Why I would vote for Obama and what I think about Jesus as presidential candidate.
At this point too, I would really like to hear who people would vote for and why because it seems relevant to the direction of the conversation.
I will throw out why i am anti Obama. Let's run down the list of his views:
1. Social Issues
Abortion - he has voted in favor of abortion in his home state.
Same Sex Marriage - voted against amendments defining a marriage between a man and a woman. Believes that same sex marriage should have equal rights. On CNN he stated "homosexuality is not immoral". Great, he not only claims to be a Christian but then comes out and claims that he disagrees with God's rules.
Gun Control - the NRA rates him as an "F" on being liberal with gun control. I think this only makes it more difficult for the guy walking into the store to purchase a weapon and does not really prevent the gangster from getting it out of someone's trunk, which is the goal.
Embryonic Stem Cell research - this guy is in favor of this, which makes sense since he believes in abortion and does not think it is a real life anyway.
Okay, so now that we have established that he goes to church and disagrees with scripture, I guess that defines him as a normal politician! I am sure some of you are reading this and thinking I am judgemental, but I would call bullcrap on that. We as christians are conditioned to be so accepting of the world. I think it is okay to say somebody is wrong.
His economic policy of taxing the rich and giving burden to the poor has never worked in any country and never will. The last time this country tried that was with Carter, that led to Prime rates of 21.5% and marginal tax rates of 70%. Double digit infaltion and high unemployment. Taxing the rich and giving to the poor sounds great in theory but most economists will tell you it does not work. I will give you an extreme example, Russia recently went to a flat tax of 13% across the board, rich and poor, their economy has grown at a 10% rate and government tax revenue with inflation adjusted is up 50%. It has kicked started their econmoy and tax revenues which is exactly what happened when Reagan was in office after the Carter debacle. Obama also wants to raise corporate taxes and capital gains taxes, that sounds great....maybe we can get some more companies to leave and go over seas! The US already has one of the highest corporate tax rates. All that does is kill capitalism and promote communism which worked great. I could go on about the economics thing for a long time but I was just throwing out why I disagree with Obama on some issues. Whatever each of you believe I encourage all of us including myself to be educated before we vote. I think it matters, and we as Americans tend to think that God loves us the most and our country will always be #1 and have no war on this soil, or famines, or another depression. Nations rise and fall, the people we elect are a reflection of what the masses want.
Grant, great job. Those are all great points and I can�t say I totally disagree with what you are saying.
This is a novel, so here we go:
First off, I think stem cell research is a positive thing. Stem cells actually are found in the highest concentration in cord blood which means they don�t necessarily come from dead fetuses or aborted babies. Stem cells can be harvested in any number of ways including from adults. Alzheimer�s patients have had stem cells injected into their synapse and doctors have seen brain regeneration and a recession of Alzheimer�s. Stem cells have resulted in arterial regeneration which is important to anyone with a history of heart problems in the family. I am all for stem cell research because of where it could take us medically, but that does not mean I am in favor of abortion (just to clarify).
Secondly, the results of eliminating the benefits for corporations to be in the US is apparent in what Grant said: they go overseas and to Mexico, etc. However, Obama seems to me to be for amending and improving NAFTA and other trade agreements which could improve things in the US and he is also for investing in American companies who manufacture stateside. I think his targets in big business are the oil companies (who receive numerous tax credits and environmental/economic incentives) because consumers are paying record prices while oil companies are making record profits and he is also targeting corporate executives who are making $18 million in bonuses while the company is cutting 400 jobs. It makes sense, especially as someone who is employed by just such a company, to champion a presidential candidate who wants to try and raise the standards of corporate America.
I think Obama�s healthcare plan is one of the best. It will be subsidized by the government and it will eliminate all of the freeloaders out there who are taking advantage of the fact that they don�t have health insurance and they can go to a hospital and pay less than what I pay when I do have health insurance. I am sick and tired of people exploiting our healthcare system (illegal immigrants, people whose jobs don�t provide health insurance, young and capable people who CHOOSE not to carry health insurance) because it is just those people who contribute to the rising health care costs we face today. My middle class butt is having to carry that. I also like Obama�s immigration plans and the fact that he recognizes the importance of securing BOTH borders. Canada is easy entry for terrorists and Mexico is easy entry for people who want the benefits of living in the US but take every penny and send it back home without paying taxes and that money is invested in the Mexican economy. If he goes through with what he is saying, then all these illegal people will eventually be paying taxes in this country and reinvesting in our economy, which is important. He also is a proponent of a government that pays for things as they go. I have heard him talk about this and I like it b/c it�s like a family on a budget. If a car breaks down and that�s not in the budget, then they have to eliminate expenditures elsewhere to make up for the deficit. This is just the kind of plan that the US needs to start getting them back in line fiscally (Grant, maybe I am wrong about how this works, so feel free to correct me). There are some things I disagree with that Obama is about, but for me is the best alternative amidst a sorry selection.
As for Jesus, I believe a few things. First off, I believe he would champion the cause of the poor (James says that �Religion that God our Father accepts as Faultless and pure is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress. . . .). This is one example among many that I think Jesus would run a government of cause and compassion for the indigent people of this country. I think that Jesus would also champion a government of love. When Jesus was asked what the 2 greatest commandments were he said Love God and Love your neighbor. He would show this by advocating governmental obedience because of the scripture mentioned above and the fact that God ordains all things, including government and to love God is to obey what He commands. So love = obedience and that would be reflected in Jesus� government. I think in loving our neighbors, He would take care of the U.S. first by loving His people. To me this means He would reach out to all people and challenge the rich to give to the poor, He would champion causes like raising minimum wage, providing health care to the poor and unemployed and elderly, and paying taxes (b/c if Jesus were president, then paying taxes would be like tithing J) I think He would reach out to our foreign neighbors and approach them with an attitude of how can I improve things here? As president of the US, he would be given much, and much will be expected so being a good steward of that would be to give to those less fortunate.
These are all my opinions. Take them with a grain of salt. Grant, I love your facts and that everything is backed up by numbers. You are becoming a true accountant!! Paul, when this started, I forgot how it challenged me. Thanks for keeping it going and challenging us to get to the core of what we believe and back it up.
Michael - well spoken. I am assuming this is Mike D. as in Hoz. If it is not then I am sorry if you get offended. If it is Hoz, then it won't bother me if you did not think I was good looking walking over that wilderness hill! I do have a couple of questions. Stem cell research, no doubt has a lot of advantages. My only question is does this lead to a slippery slope? You stated they can come from adults but science will tell you that the "embryonic stem cells" are far more superior for treating disease and regeneration vs. adult stem cells. How do we draw the line on that? Just a question, not a challenge. As far as taxing oil companies, and high paid CEO's, I do have a challenge. Oil companies have made record profits over the last few years. My question is do you really think by raising their taxes they are going to eat the cost and make less money? Oil effects every industry, think about all the goods we buy, most of them have transportation costs of some kind. When the price of oil increases it not only effects us at the pump, but on every single item we buy. Since Opec still controls 2/3 of the worlds oil production(for those of you who don't know OPEC is, it's as close to an organized cartel in the modern world for controlling oil production) I don't see them willing to make less money which means that tax gets passed to the consumer. When you go to the grocery store all of those items you purchase have freight built into the cost, meaning that someone had to pay to get it there. Do you think as these costs go up they won't be passed on to you? Taxing CEO's works about the same way. This is not a new idea Obama has, it has been tried before. When taxes increase the rich do not make less money! Do you honestly think they are going to lower their standard of living and profits so we, the little people, can have a better life? No, they never do. They will pass those higher taxes on to the poor worker as usual through higher prices,lower wages, job cuts, or outsourcing. Americans are helping this cause, I mean we want the best stuff and want to pay the cheapest price, and then look like fools as we cry about jobs leaving the country. Do you ever wonder why the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor? As far as universal healthcare, when you state the government is going to subsidize this basically that means that we are freaking paying for it! I agree with you totally on us having to pay for these free loading people right now and it sucks. So maybe Universal would not be that bad, since we are going to pay for it regardless. Immigration, every candidate running believes these we need a tougher immigration policy and get these people paying taxes. His policy is not any different. Fire back at me. I could be wrong, it always is nerve racking to throw an idea or opinion out there and wonder if someone will fire back at you. I respect you for having an opinion and backing it up, even if we don't agree.
It has been tough for me to really lay down my background (Republican) and really really investigate what each party represents. Here are a few points.
OK. First of all, Abortion IS legal. IT sucks. It's murder, yet it IS legal. No Republican conservative has ever entered the Big Job and abolished it.
Gay Marriage IS legal in some states. It is state mandated SO, there are far bigger issues federally to worry about. Under the Bush administration, Gay marriage was legalized in a few states, so what does that tell you? For this issue, make sure you elect STATE officials who agree with your stance. Yay for Texas!
Gun Control. I know I will hit a sensitive topic seeing as we have lots of taxidermy down here in the Lone Star State. My dad has a closet FULL of guns. With that said, what is the freaking big deal about gun control. Grant, you are right, NOTHING will stop the thug from stealing a weapon and using it for destruction/murder, but does this mean that it should just be easy for anyone to get a gun? I have a weird stance on this. I beleive in our constitutional right to carry weapons and with the right licence I think we should be able to. BUT, I think it should be a much more rigourous process than just going into a gun shop and purchasing a weapon. Under MY plan, we need to add those with known mental issues AS well as all criminals who have been charged with any degree of assault to the LIST that is ran to see if someone could purchase a gun. If we had had this extensive of a list, Virginia Tech would not have happened. So, I think money needs to be put into updating this system regularly. On the same note, I think there should be NO restrictions as to where a licenced person can carry a weapon, UNLESS that place is protected by armed officers (court buildings, etc.) As it stands, Joe Blow can buy a weapon even if he has been diagnosed with mental issues, had restraining orders against him/her etc. The only thing stopping is a felony charge. Also, a person with a Concealed Handgun License cannot carry on school campuses. I think this is ridiculous. Unless a school can post an armed officer at each building, all this does is allow the criminal to come in and murder and the others are defenseless.
Health Care is such a big issue for me and I have no idea where I stand. What we are doing now IS not working so I am open to Universal, but as you mentioned Grant, we are going to pay. I just dont know, but it is so broken.
One last point before I head out. Paul, you have mentioned liberals quite a few times. There is a distinction however. I think often, Christians here the word liberal and think of the things you mentioned. (Legalizing marijuana, gay marriage, just a free for all) I think we are all more a like than we realize and that the vast majority of Americans fall in the middle. Far right conservatives have their own crazy idealogues, although I do think that the far left are FAR more dangerous, because they have infultrated mainstream media ... BUT there is a distinction. I am certainly conservative on most issues, but some I just don't know. If I take a more "liberal" stance on say, stem cell research, or gun control, that certainly does not mean I am a loony liberal who wants everyone to be able to shoot up and have sex in the streets.
Anyway, just wanted to make the distinction. I hope that we would all think its probably a good idea to take care of our planet, but doesn't mean we are going to climb in some trees to keep them from being cut down. ALSO, I doubt that while I am assuming most of us view abortion as murder, we wont find ourselves burning down and clinics, or violently murdering gays because we think they are living in sin. Ya'll get my point? Liberalism in the true sense of the word needs to not be so taboo amoung Christians, including myself.
Oh, and I also wanted to point out that Michael IS Mike DelaHoz and he ISNT the one who said they would vote for Obama. He missed that poll, so there is someone else that feels the same.
I forgot to mention stem cell. This is a tough one for me. But I am so ready for a politician to coem in and unify the parties. We have way to many smart people in the world to not be able to come up with a good solution. I mean, this is my point. It's an all or nothing for many. Just the words stem cell research make conservatives cringe because they think of murdering fetuses. There are OTHER ways. IF we would all stop arguing over it and fight for a solution, it could work. For example, stem cells, as Mike mentioned can be found in OTHER areas. One that he didn't mention however is in the CORD blood of an infant. Here is my idea. I think it is original but its probably not. Why can't we make getting stem cells from embryos ILLEGAL, (its murder) BUT set up a system where parents can DONATE the cord blood of their new baby to medical research. Maybe I am missing something but I think this is a great idea. All you moms and maybe dads remember too, know that in the docs office when you are preggo, there are advertisements for cord blood storage. I would have loved to save Mia grace's cord blood, so God forbid, she became ill later in life, they could use her own stem cells to help find a cure for whatever she had ... BUT, its like thousands of dollars. Every day thousands of babies are born. While, it is Ideal to have YOUR OWN stem cells, most research (as Mike mentioned with Alzheimer's) has been done using different people's stem cells. What if we put money into a system where parents could donate the cord blood. (It just gets thrown away) It seems logical to me to start this instead of arguing over the embryos. The researchers would have more cord blood than they knew what to do with it.
Anyway, my two cents for what its worth.
I'll just go for one issue at a time and then come back for more later.
In researching Obama, I discovered some interesting and bothersome stances he takes in his voting record, which is all we have to go on other than his debate proposals and stump speeches of recent months. They are as follows:
Civil Rights:
Being gay or lesbian is not a choice. (Nov 2007)
Ok to expose 6-year-olds to gay couples; they know already. (Sep 2007)
Better enforce women's pay equity via Equal Pay Act. (Aug 2007)
Supports health benefits for gay civil partners. (Oct 2006)
Opposes gay marriage; supports civil union & gay equality. (Oct 2006)
Supports affirmative action in colleges and government. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration. (Jun 2006)
Voted NO on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. (Jun 2006)
Rated 89% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 100% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)
Abortion:
Voted against banning partial birth abortion. (Oct 2007)
Trust women to make own decisions on partial-birth abortion. (Apr 2007)
Pass the Stem Cell Research Bill. (Jun 2004)
Protect a woman's right to choose. (May 2004)
Supports Roe v. Wade. (Jul 1998)
Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)
Corporate:
End tax breaks for companies that send jobs overseas. (Aug 2007)
Voted YES on repealing tax subsidy for companies which move US jobs offshore. (Mar 2005)
Voted NO on reforming bankruptcy to include means-testing & restrictions. (Mar 2005)
Immigration:
Voted NO on declaring English as the official language of the US government. (Jun 2007)
Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security. (May 2006)
Rated 8% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance. (Dec 2006)
The abortion topic alone is grounds enough for me to vote for any pro-choice candidate. He is not that guy and never will be. By the way, he can't do it all. Noone can, which is the beauty of the American government. Checks and balances hinder everyone once they take office leading to a big game of give and take. The new House was supposed to remedy all of W's grandiose mishaps which we all know was to no avail because they are such weenies and are like big mouth bass- all mouth and no ass!
As a Christian, how would your Spirit allow you to compromise on these social issues for a little more dough in your wallet? That's even a stretch in the kindest words. As Grant stated, do you really think if Obama wins that the middle class and the poor people win? It's laughable because the dudes that have figured out how to screw everyone to make millions or worked their ever-lovin rears off or are just plain freaky smart are going to allow all the fist-pumping supporters drinking the Kool-Aid to take over? When they, the rich, hold back, we suffer. We NEED the rich to spend, build, invest, and hire.
Also, as a middle classer I don't lack much. Think about it in relative terms to the world. We are all rich! We are the only country where our poor people are fat and travel to Disney on gay-pride day. People are freakin starving everywhere and enduring horrible atrocities we can't begin to fathom so I'm voting for the candidate that alligns himself closest to God because all the other crap is fluff and meaningless.
That was my rant today in a conversation with an Obamian and is not meant to be personal in any way. I'll try to deal with more specific issues later tonight.
wow this has been great stuff, i hate being the guy that just agrees with everything but thats what it comes to with the whole obama thing. you cant ignore the facts that paul put out and grant you really laid out a good reason why taxing the rich will only lead to higher taxes on us. like you said the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and that is a fact that i dont believe taxes will change. so just a couple more things that i wanted to add about obama. i was watching this report on his time as senator and what he opposed and what he supported and paul pretty much put them all, but there are a couple that stood out to me as quite troublesome. see there are three ways of voting in his state and that is either "yes" "no" or "present" which is just neutral and casts neither a yes or no. when it came to a bill that wouldnt allow porn or sex shops within 500 yards (i believe it could be 1000 yards) from schools obama just voted "present". this just shows me he is either two afraid to offend to many people or just doesnt have a stance on the matter which would be even worse. either way i can't ignore these huge flaws in his policy and find myself with paul when he says the pro-choice alone is more than enough to make me not vote for him but the other stuff is just even more of a confirmation why i shouldnt. well thats enough rambling for me. this is my thought on the situation and of course it goes without saying im just throwing it out there for all of our friends sitting on the sidelines. come out and play!
I wouldn't vote or not vote on a candidate simply because of their stance on abortion. Bush is pro-life and did NOTHING about it. No one will touch Roe vs. Wade. I already mentioned the same-sex marriage thing as well. It became legalized UNDER the Bush administration. I dont even know who I am voting for yet. I just dont love McCain. One thing that I am irritated with and excuse me if I offend anyone, is that many Republicans think that they are the ONLY party that has any morals. It is possible to be a loyal servant of the Lord Jesus Christ and be a Democrat? What about Health Care for children, what about taking care of those less fortunate? Is that not something we are called to do? IS war what Jesus would have chosen? Another thing that really irritates me is that so many Christians are Republicans, yet they are the ones sucking the well dry by being on Medicaid, Welfare, and taking every handout they can get. The Democratic Party is the one that created those free handouts. Honestly, at the core, I am a Republican, I just fear that McCain will grab the seat and it will be the same old crap. I do not think that Obama is going to get the Big Seat and Legalize Partial Birth Abortion. I think he will work on Education and Health Care first. Plus, all these politicians vote right along with thier party affiliation to resist backfire. If Bush was so against abortion and same sex marriage, why didn't he do something about it. Instead we have continued to spend millions on a war that was obvious wasn't going to work out. I was for going to war at the beginning and do not knock him for that at all. BUt, I think he has let his pride get in the way and we should have found a solution a while ago.
Also, can someone please tell me WHY they ARE voting for McCain? It seems that we've done a lot of talking about Obama and quite honestly I am sick of trying to defend a candidate I dont even know if I am voting for ... I want to hear why you are voting for McCain. I beleive Rachel and I were the only people on the survey that said they would vote for McCain. They rest of you wimped out and put Bono.
OK. So I have heard your rants about why you WONT vote for Obama. Tell me who you are for and why?
Okay, I still come back to why I have not heard anyone say who they would vote for and why, only why they WOULDN’T vote for Obama. So let’s here some good stuff. Let’s here who the best candidate is for you.
Also, I don’t believe that we have a quality candidate to select from. Therefore, I am evaluating from the standpoint of how do I choose the best of the worst, if that makes sense.
Grant, you made a great point that I had not considered which is how much we truly rely on oil. It is used in transportation, production, and virtually everything we can put our hands on has in some way relied on it to get it into the hands of consumers. Even the service market is reliant on that b/c they have to drive somewhere to provide services! Also, I spoke to my mother this evening and we briefly spoke of politics/presidents and I said that I thought Obama’s idea of raising the minimum wage to a wage that would actually enable people to live. However, would this drive the hiring of illegal immigrants? Would this force more jobs overseas? I don’t know. But to me, it could lead to the beginning of a solution for helping the impoverished. It may not be perfect in the onset, but it could evolve into something very positive for the American people.
Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
I don’t see a problem with the above statement because if you look at some statistics, they would indicate that teen pregnancy rates increased the minute schools abandoned sex education courses (I would rather teach a TAKS class than that one!) And I do see that there are some conflicts with certain things, but the reality is that no matter who I vote for there would have to be some compromise b/c I won’t agree with certain things for each individual candidate. Abortion will not change. I would venture to say that abortion laws will not change since Roe v. Wade is a 40-year-old legal precedent. I don’t see McCain running on a platform that advocates making abortion illegal, so I must assume that he doesn’t consider it an issue, right? As for gay marriage, to me, it falls along the same lines of the beauty of democracy: freedom and choice. That is not to say that I agree with it or support it, but the movement of this nation indicates that this is something that by and large will be dictated by the states, so thank God for states’ rights and thank God for Texas and the south, where gay marriage will probably not be legalized.
My top issues are healthcare, immigration/border security, foreign policy and a few other things, but these are there. Of the health care ideas, in my opinion, Obama’s is the best out there. And yes, we will pay for it through taxes, but it seems to me that we will see a decrease in medical bills (not insurance premiums, copays, etc) because there will be less deficit to make up for those who exploit our current system. So either way, I guess I gain some and pay some. Yes, every candidate has a border policy/idea, but to me it has to revolve around technology and I see every candidate as equal here. There’s a problem, it needs to be fixed, and the end result should be the same through an effective program regardless of who is elected. I also think foreign policy is huge. We are in the midst of some serious issues in the Middle East, Africa, North Korea, and BTW, has anyone heard about what China is doing? Come on, we need someone like Obama who is captivating, diplomatic, and capable of solid international relationships. His background alone lends to slightly more credibility there. A female president would hurt us in the Middle East primarily due to their view of women in society. I also believe that it takes a salesman like Obama to polarize/unify/foster bipartisanship. His stance on some issues will alienate some conservatives, but for the most part I think he has the greatest POTENTIAL for bringing politicians together.
Grant, again, good points on the taxing stuff. I will have to reevaluate and get back to you. As Crystal mentioned, stem cells are out there in abundance, it’s just a matter of figuring out how to pay for storage of cord blood b/c it is very expensive. That would be the best place for it. It’s out there, we just have to get it.
And lastly, why would I vote for an old man who is going to have osteoporosis before his term is up and probably be suffering from a variety of age-related ailments. . . . . Just kidding!
Freaking education. That's important to me too. I forgot to mention that.
I love you guys! Where are the other women??? I am ALL alone!
i meant to say this earlier im voting for Mike Huckabee because like i told rachel and paul earlier today. nobody and i mean nobody wants to be on the wrong side of Chuck a.k.a "the fist" Norris!
You need to research your abortion history. Bush was THE main player in the passing of NO partial birth abortion in 2003! It was the greatest hit made on Roe v. Wade to date.
I'm sorry, but the ones on welfare are all Dems because they are the ones enslaved by the liberal fascist who govern them to death by creating more ways to give them just enough to keep their vote, but no real solutions to the BIG PICTURE problem.
The Libs hate Bush for his stance on gay marriage! It's such a huge issue only because Bush has spoken out so strongly concerning the sanctity of marriage. He has been a staunch advocate for keeping marriage between only a man and a woman. He can't fire a local judge or state governor for abandoning the law and allowing gay marriage.
God has been at War for a very long time and is no stranger to it's harsh tactics. Until you wipe out Satan and all his dirty little warriors, you'll always have war. Our God is a God of war and it's in my best interest to be on His side. Giving ground to the Enemy by saying you're for people's choice won't win the war. We can't continue to give up ground because someone with no experience calls for hope and change.
As far as the minimum wage and helping the poor, most respected economist will tell you this will only result in the loss of jobs for the lowest income families. Again, a business will not hire the kid with no education, high school dropouts and the like at that wage. It will attract a more qualified person and the poor lose out once again. It's an empty promise that sounds good to people who don't know any better.
If you like the oil argument then look at Obama's record concerning ANWR. He voted not to drill in ANWR and help our country become less dependent on oil. For him, again, it's all about the soundbite. He wants to appease his party by being "green" at the cost of oil dependence. You can't have it both ways. The locals there voted an overwhelming 75% to drill and better than anyone understand that only 8% of the land would be affected. The freakin Arctic is huge. We should drill! But it won't be popular with the naturalist who are all Dems.
The point about Obama being the best in foreing relations because of his background is the hardest point to understand. What background? Are you saying his Muslim background, his being half black, although he was raised by only white people because his dad was unfortunately killed in a motorcycle accident before he ever even knew him? McCain has tons more credibility. Do you believe Obama will take his charm and swagger and out talk these psycho-nutbag dictators and swoon them like he has so many Americans. Diplomacy requires leverage and every world leader who hates us wants Obama to win. They have every finger and toe crossed hoping and praying to Allah for his victory. McCain has more knowledge and leverage with foreign leaders in his pinky finger than Hillary and Obama combined.
I'm sorry I can't cover the shotgun blast in one night, but promise to respond to points later.
By the way, McCain has an outstanding and life-long consistent voting record of pro-life. That alone is enough for me and although he's not my first choice and I disagree with some of his stances as well, I will give more positive reasons why he is the best of the three.
People get carried away in the primaries where candidates pander to their parties so you hear alot of rhetoric and I think it's a bunch of empty promises. Both sides will wander closer to the middle to gain the ever elusive independant vote.
Lastly, I'm no Republican, just like I'm no Baptist. I'm a conservative, much like I'm non-denominational. For the record.
OK. I do need to look a little more into abortion. I did not realize that was Bush that pushed that through. I know all of you think that Mike and I are some liberal hippies. We aren't. We are just choosing to really look at all sides and challenge what we always have gone with.
My point about Christian Republicans being on healthcare is true. I personally know at least five families who claim to be conservative Republicans and have been on some sort of governement aide. That was my point.
Education is huge for me and I think that Bush jacked that up. Do you really still think we can win this war? I think we have done a noble thing and tried, but we have done what we can do. Until the Iraquis want to fight for their own freedom I think its a good idea to start planning for withdrawal. That is one area I really like McCain. I feel more secure with him as President. We need to focus on homeland security as I am sure the "psycho nut bags" as you call them are rigourusly planning another attack.
I think this is the first time that the primarys have been this heated. McCain has it in the bag, so much focus has been brought to Obama and Hilary. I just dont want Hilary in the Seat at all. Later on Obama will have to answer some tough questions and that will really show his true colors. My true decision will be made much later when all of that comes to light.
Bush is to preoccupied with the war to worry about health care and immigration. I am hoping that McCain will take a stronger role on border control. I beleive that if someone would get in there and do that then health care would automatically get better and so would our economy bc we wouldn't be dishing out freebies to everyone! I just want to know that McCain will get in there and do more than spend money we dont have on the war and focus solely on that.
Give me other pros about McCain! You can say all day that Bush took a stance, but the first gay couple to marry happened while he was in office.
Paul you have gotten seriously fired up! You called Dems facsists?! lol.
Seriously, I'm not that fired up. I enjoy arguing much more than going hook lie and sinker for one of these hodibies. Your logic is what's fascinating and intriguing to me as a person who knows you. It's beyond me how you could consider a guy more left than Hillary, who you would NEVER vote for. He believes in everything that opposes the core of my value system. He's liberal, always will be. I'm conservative, always will be. It's a mute point. I don't like alot of McCain's stances and policy choices, but he's going to vote and push for a conservative agenda. Period.
Your argument about gay marriage is hard to believe. If a district judge at the local level chooses not to obey the law and the governor doesn't reprimand them for it in any way they will continue to mock our conservative beliefs and Geoge can do nothing about it. It's government at the state and local level. It's the same as blaming the economy on George Bush because alot of greedy people spend more than they make. They bought houses at low interest rates in hopes of paying these rates for a couple years and then dumping the house for $100,000 more than what they paid for it. Like anything else, when a good thing gets abused and the market gets saturated, the prices crash because there simply isn't enough people to buy at the higher price so people get stuck and can't afford the house payment. That's George's fault, right. Bad economy. And I suppose Obama is going to come in and save us with his brilliant plan and all his experience. I refer to experience because experience always matters, whether it's fighters, teachers, salesman or whatever. Some people are ready for the big promotion and others are not. I don't believe he's close, buthe sounds like it. Fool's Gold if you ask me.
About to take the Sydsster for pizza so I'll return later.
Hoz I will respond to you on who I would vote for and why. There is no doubt that each candidate has flaws (i.e. Jesus is not running), the sad thing is, without excercising his divine power this country would never elect him, if he was in disguise half of the christians probably would not vote for him. Different debate. Really we are looking at 2 people. McCain or Obama. No one else stands a chance of making it past these 2 in the primaries. McCain will get my vote and here is why. This guy has served this country for over 50 years. He graduated from the naval academy and his father and grandfather were both admirals in the Navy. He was a tortured POW for 5.5 years after being shot down in Vietnam. Not to mention he has 2 sons, one is a marine and the other is in the naval academy. This guy has been in politics since Reagan was in office in the early 80's. Hoz you said foreign policy was important, I don't know about you but I would rather have a guy seasoned by fire than a younger Obama in terms of foreign policy. The last time this country had a president with so little experience was Kennedy. Experts will tell you the Russians ran circles around us, we were as close as ever to nuclear war. Do some homework on the Cuban Missle Crisis. You made a comment about McCains age, but he is about the same age as Reagan was when he took office. Probably one of the better Presidents this country has ever seen and took over an absolute mess of an economy and frigid foreign relations with Russia. You said Obama's background gives him more credibility in foreign issues. This guy has no experience! If you argue because of his skin color and where he has lived then that I vote we hire my secretary who is hispanic and lived in Mexico to negotiate NAFTA for the U.S.! One of the main titles of a Prez is Commander in Chief, McCain has an edge. Most experts on CNBC will tell you this is a disadvantage for Obama, not a positive. Hoz, healthcare was big for you. I think McCain makes the most valuable point with healthcare and he is the only one making this point. Infaltion! Did you know GM has to charge an extra $1,700 per vehicle over Toyota to cover the cost of their workers benefits? We wonder why jobs leave this country, are you willing to pay this so a worker in Detroit can have benefits, call me harsh but I sure as hell don't! The reason healthcare is an issue is the rising costs. You have doctors raping insurance companies because they have to pay whatever is charged and then the insurance companies kill the employers and employees with high deductibles and premiums to cover their own costs. McCain promotes more competition which is always good for the consumer. I see Universal health care as extremely expensive. In Britain pieces are taken out of your salary and if you are poor, you pay none and everybody receives the same treatment. McCain encourages people to at least shop around for the best price, which promotes competition and lower prices. I will be honest with you I don't know which one is better, but I do know in Britain, Universal health care cost was under estimated by 5 times when it was first created. This country has the best doctors in the world unfortunatley because of money and pay, proponets of Universal say this gets damaged...maybe or maybe not. Border control was one of your other issues. That is kind of irrelevant because they all think it is an issue an we need more border control. Hoz, I am frustrated because I don't like all of McCains views, and I am more frustrated because if Christ was running, this country would not even elect him through the primaries. These candidates are a reflection of the American people. I am not preaching end times, but we know things don't get better and man does not get better. I think you make the most with what you have. Obama is so far out, that only leaves McCain in my mind. I do think he is the best candidate available.
As for the sex class you want to teach, Hoz, the point was that Obama is for sex education and cotraceptives meaning NO abstinence! I don't want my daughter, as I'm sure you don't either, to have a fun ole time learning how to "do it" and be safe in the process from some liberal (favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, dictionary.com). Noooo thank you, I think I want to be responsible for that.
It's why the word fascist was injected into the conversation. The Libs want to control everything with programs. I don't want their free-thinking selves interfering and telling me what I should or shouldn't do. That is simply the fundamental philosophy of the Dems-bigger government. I, personally, am for privitization and competition. It's fundamental to my belief system. I do think the church should be administering programs for the poor, the non-English speaking, and those facing any hardship people suffer in this spiritual war we are engaged in. I don't want the government to tell me who to give my money to or program me to death.
Check out Canada's universal healthcare; and not from Michael Moore who interviewed the three people in Canada who said they liked it. Their tax rates are off the charts and think about it- if you're not one to take advantage of the system then you'll get screwed. With cheap healthcare that we all pay for will only create an atmosphere of greed in paramount proportions. People will be going to the doctor for every little ache and pain all the while asking for some pain meds they don't need. It absolutely can't work without astronomical costs to you and me. It sounds good to tell people they are going to get something for free, which the Dems are good at because it gives them control. The Repubs at least say work for what you get- compete! That's why most of them have money. It makes fundamental sense.
As far as McCain, he's just more conservative by a long stretch over Obama. It makes everything real simple for me. I'm conservative(disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change) and so is he. I'm not liberal, or a secular progressive and Obama is. Therefore I make my final conclusion- no votey for youey!
I definitely agree with a free market and competition as far as health insurance. However, the industry now is so dominated by the big companies like Cigna and United Healthcare and their expansive networks that I think that could hurt competition. They simply have more leverage in the market to control prices and crush the competition. So to me, it seems that would allow them more market control and suppress competition from smaller companies. I also believe health care costs are driven by the vast amount of people who can't'/don't/won't pay, so I have to pick up their slack. Also, insurance companies have a maximum allowance doctors can receive for certain procedures, and it is different for each insurance company. So doctors max out the charge based on the maximum each insurance company has and then they take whatever the cap is from that company. So if Crystal gets a sonogram, the bill goes out for $325 to the insurance company, but the insurance company only pays a max of $85 and the doctor takes what he can get. My last three policies were like that for our family, so I don't necessarily believe that insurance companies are fully to blame for the high healthcare prices.
I also believe any plan Obama proposes has to pass the Congress and the Senate. So I think that if he could just initiate the process then my hope would be that people in those offices would come together to find the middle ground that is best for the people. Probably naive and idealistic, but that's what I would hope for. So what I am saying is that Obama's universal plan may not be the best plan, but I think it could lead to increasing the availability of health benefits to people.
In response to sex ed, I can't argue with stats and numbers. I am not saying education in schools is the answer, but I think some type of education is necessary because the reality is that not every parent is going to be as active in educating their child as Paul or even myself.
Also, I was discussing this topic and our blog with a buddy of mine this morning and he put some ideas out there that expressed some of the things I have been trying to say. It's Obama's "presence." To me, that's what makes him polarizing and capable or relationships and foreign diplomacy and possibly fostering bipartisanship. That's what I am saying. It takes the amicable way he has and I think that is something that cannot be taught or learned. You have it or you don't.
Also, I recognize McCain's service record to this country. I also tremendously respect that because I don't think that I have ever had the courage to join the military, much less endure a military academy. However, I don't believe that being a soldier makes you a good leader. Of course it gives you specific insight into how best to use the military, which is important, but each president is surrounded by advisers who have a similar knowledge.
Lastly, McCain's experience vs. Obama's inexperience is something I am also attracted to. McCain has been part of the machine for so long that it seems to me he is locked into political thinking that is one of our current problems with our government. I think Obama could bring fresh ideas and for lack of a better expression, think "outside the box."
Grant, I got a new shotgun, so let's go shoot it at Elm Fork Ranch some time.
Lastly, Anderson Silva beats Dan Henderson in round 1 by referee stoppage due to strikes.
I am now so confused my head is spinning. I like to argue a little bit too :) Sometimes I even find myself in a position where I am arguing a stance that I dont 100% believe in, lol. I just really want to explore all options and really question before I just make decisions based on what I am supposed to believe. It's been fun, sort of.
I do appreciate all the firing back. I really am about as anti-government as it gets. I secretly feel the same way you mentioned Paul about people taking advantage of the system. It baffles me, really. AND, what's even more frustrating is that people are open about it. It's this whole sense of entitlement thing. I guess I am frustrated with the Republican party right now. I voted for Bush and I do not fully blame him for much. I am not a Bush hater. It's just one man for crying out loud. It takes "an act of Congress" as the saying goes to get anything accomplished in Washington. Honestly, I am irritated with the whole situation that we are in. I dont think the mess of the economy has much to do with Bush. I actually dont think we are about to go into another depression. We consume and spend to much as a nation. We want to live and have what our parents have and it took them 20 years, working their butts off to get it. We are impatient and greedy and completely horrible stewards with the blessings we have. Combine all that with millions of people all in one country and we have a mess. It's that simple.
I am dissappointed that same sex marriage happened under a consrvative Presidents watch, that thousands of little girls are molested every day in this country by convicted criminals, that all sex ed was dropped leading to a rise in teenage pregnancy and thus a rise in abortion, all under the Bush administration. I am NOT blaming him. I am blaming the world we live in. I just have lost confidence that the President of the most powerful nation has any power at all. I love my country and want to some digity to be restored and I do want change. SO ... maybe I have been swooned a little by the ultra smooth Obama, I dont know. I am just willing to listen to whomever recognizes we have some problems and wants change to. I look forward to hearing more from McCain and Obama. My prediction is that Obama will slip eventually when he is forced to answer the really tough questions and I will be in the voting box, putting my hand in once again for Grandpa with a glimmer of hope that he can make a difference (knowing full well only HE can truly make change :) )
HEEEYY, KOOOL-AID! Presence? President of the freakin USA? Wow! That's the qualification? Presence?
You're right, he has the presence to vote to leave a living aborted baby on the table to die and not allow doctors to intervene. The baby is struggling on the table, was meant to be aborted, but God allowed him/her to live, puts the babies life in man's hands and the law Obama voted for handcuffs the doctor because the mother intended to murder him in the womb... but who are we to dispute that?
It's the banner all Obama's fans wave- fresh ideas, although we don't know what they really are, but they are different. Much like when a school is run by a strict principal and all the teachers cry out for change in the way of a new fresh principal that really understands the workload of a tired teacher (yuuuck!). They get a weenie and then they act disgusted because he's so nice and refuses to make a hard stand on their newest desires because he's too busy relating with his great personal presence. Then the cycle continues. If you want change for change sake then you fit the description of liberal. If you are more of a traditionalist and would like to return to family values and people volunteering to help out one another then you're a conservative.
I respect both sides, but I warn- be very careful for what you wish for...you may get exactly that!
http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/
This is a fairly interesting blog about God and politics.
Hey Mike...I went to this blog and the first two names I read were Oprah, who is as far from a Christian as you can get and Arianna Huffington, one of the most liberal women in the world. She was the very first blog suggested to read. On her sight this week a contributor said something to the effect that Ronald Reagan lived to long and that she was glad Nancy Reagan fell and hopes she dies soon in her own bathwater. These people are sick! It was much worse than that. If you need fodder for this debate from unreliable sources and the wonderful secular progressives then you need to also check out the Daily Kos and the Media Matters. They fit the bill
So I have been keeping my eye on this post. I am going out of town this weekend and printed off all of your responses...41 PAGES!!!! Hope it makes for some good reading on the plane. Maybe I will have some opinions when I get back.
Much love!
I never said it was a good blog or something I agreed with. Just interesting to read people's points of view.
I think things have gotten a little out of control. I happen to really respect Oprah a lot and if she proclaims to be a Christian then I think we should believe her. That's like saying the YL kid who stands up at say-so and comes home and falls right back into his lifestyle. We dont say well, they aren't a Christian anymore. I just think that is harsh. Oprah is doing a heck of a lot more good for people than lots of preachers on TV standing up at the pulpit taking the talk and not backing it up. Her journey has been broadcasted on TV five days a week for 20 years. I think I might look a lot LESS Christian if I were in those shoes. I just think to say she is "as far away from a Christian as you can get" is a too far. If that's the case, maybe I am not as Christian as I should be? Sorry, but if I said Bono was about as Christian as you can get, maybe a few would get a little defensive. Tangent, I know.
I think what paul was trying to say is that what oprah confesses to believe and what she actually preaches are two different things. Yes it may be true that oprah is a christian that has become distorted, but she has been decieved by the "New Age Movement." Most of her guest our New Age Movement authors with books such as "finding the light within" these books talk about how everyone has their own divinity and we just have to find different ways of connecting to our inner light. It has become a view which oprah has taken and this is a quote from her show .
On the recent show with new age panel Betty Eadie, Sophy Burnham, and Dannion Brinkley, Oprah positively alluded to the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, stating in summary, "..that one of the biggest mistakes humans make is to believe that there is only one way. Actually, there are many diverse paths leading to what you call God."
When corrected by a Christian in the audience that Jesus said He was the only Way, the panel lost their composure, coming unglued. Oprah reacted, "There couldn't possibly be only one way...Does God care about your heart or whether you called His Son Jesus?"
Of course He cares!!! this is a fundamental issue to christianity and if you take oprah's words it is in direct contrast to what being a christian means. I think paul was just saying yes oprah tries to help make people better but i would disagree with you that who gives a crap if i feel good when i die, if you have led me away from the only way to God than keep your positive feelings and give me SALVATION! sorry oprah is a sensitive subject for me. No doubt she is well intentioned and probably a nice lady but she is leading millions of people astray when she says "if your feeling down or luck hasnt gone your way YOU can fix it"
Brent, first of all I think Paul is doing one heck of a job defending himself ;) I watched the show that the quote you pulled from a google search took place. It was probably 7 years ago. Anyway, that is my point ... much of her journey is documented. If my words were documented, then people could document me and say I was a false teacher. I have said things that were in stark contrast to the bible many times and now stand corrected. I am not here to defend Oprah's beliefs, but just to say that I dont think this is what we should be concerned about. She is not denouncing Jesus at all, and in fact, when you search Jesus and Oprah it probably doesn't pull up the time that she asked Faith Hill to sing "I surrender all" because it was her favorite hymnal and then she proceeded to tell the story of the day she surrendered her life to JESUS. I just dont get why people scrutinize Oprah so much. For heaven's sake she didn't go to seminary to be a preacher and is now false teaching. Or, she isn't a Joel Olsteen who is preaching to thousands each week under the facade of Christianity. SHe is not denouncing Jesus. Sure she may have doubts or questions about what happens to the African child who has never been taught about Jesus ... are these not questions we all have? I just get annoyed when believers pretend to have all the answers and scrutinize those who dont. I'm not saying this is what you and Paul are doing at all. IT's actually silly that I am defending Oprah. I just admire her in many ways. Do I look to her to know more about Christ, heck no, I go to my bible for that. I just dont think its our job to place people on the Christian heirarchy scale.
OK. I had some time to consider everything. I lied when I said I like to argue, in fact I hate it. I love to discuss things and ideas and learn from other people and ultimately learn about God. He speaks to me in so many different ways. But, I have veered way off the path, I admit. This is not good for me any longer. At least this topic. I have found myself taking stances on things I honestly dont feel strongly about, just OPEN to. I wanted to be a source of debate when the one who REALLY put they would vote for Obama didn't speak up. It's nonsence really! I found myself getting defensive with the tones that started coming through, which is just crazy. This is just a freakin blog and we are ALL believers. I apologise for anything I have said to offend anyone. I dont mind offending people if it is in His name, but this isn't. It's been childish on my part, but it has taught me quite a bit and believe it or not has really led me back to what God has been teaching me. One thing being that I really want to allow God to use me for kingdom work. This has shown me how far I am from having that eternal perspective that Paul had day in and out. I truly desire that. This was just another way I wasted precious time researching something that was pretty worthless (for me). I'm not saying that everyone else's comments, or this whole blog, or this topic are worthless. Not at all! Just thought I would share how I was feeling since we have shared so much on the blog so far.
So, there it is. I want to be this excited to read the blog when we are discussing how the Lord is working and changing the hearts of His children. Now that fires me up!
I will of course continue to read the thread and post, but you will see that my outlook has changed and I thought I should explain.
I am literally laughing out loud just thinking of this nonsense. If you all only knew ... I tivo Bill O'Reilly for goodness sake.
I still have a special place in my heart for Oprah, but you all can think she is the anti-Christ for all I care. It doesn't matter.
I come and GO in peace my friends. lol!
Here's your proof Oprah is not a Christian. Sorry to disappoint you, Crystal. It's hard to watch your hero fall. If you have anything this condemning on Bono then feel free to send it my way. Sh's a wolf in sheep's clothing. The worst kind. Deceiving, like Obama. She got you. You said I went too far...judge for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecRnSTtOwcw
Sorry for not reading all the posts before I posted. I wouldn't have put up the last thing. I can't access this from work and I've been out to eat late with friends from Africa and I just got home. I saw Oprah defense and put it up. As far as tones I understand. I blog with atheist and it gets nasty. I just get sick of prefacing everything with I don't want to offend, although I don't. I just figure we'ere all big boys and girls and understand. I will post some info I believe is fair and look forward to your response.
This is Obama's education philosophy and McCain's education philosophy. Both are from the same site and I think you will appreciate the fair representation of both. It is simply the breakdown by Quotes from interviews, excerpts from their personal websites, and voting records.
I really think you'll like this, Crystal.
What stuck out to me was what McCain had in his plan concerning prayer, religious symbols, and taught virtues that Obama did not.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Barack_Obama_Education.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_McCain_Education.htm
These are the highlights of each guys healthcare plans.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Barack_Obama_Health_Care.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_McCain_Health_Care.htm
This is one thing that really bothers me about people who can't stop talking about ALL the casulties and such...the statistical data that Christians should take note of. Obviously, every life is of equal importance, but if you're gonna fight for something because of people dying, then the war shouldn't even be in the radar.
I pulled these stats from aniwar.com- a very hateful place so that noone thinks these are some right wing blog accounts. And they wre updated as of Feb. 26th, 2008.
Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation
Edited by Margaret Griffis :: Contact
American Military Casualties in Iraq
Date
Total
In Combat
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03):
3973
3249
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list)
3834
3141
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03):
3512
2943
Since Handover (6/29/04):
3115
2616
Since Election (1/31/05):
2535
2353
So that means we've lost less than 4,000 since the war began over 5 years ago. Check out how many we lose in training accidents every year. It's very close to this number when we aren't in a war. These stats are easier to read on antiwar.com
These are all annual causes of death in the United States alone...fascinating when you compare, especially when you compare the outrage:
Tobacco
435,0001
Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity
365,0001
Alcohol
85,000 1
Microbial Agents
75,0001
Toxic Agents
55,0001
Motor Vehicle Crashes
26,3471
Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs
32,0002
Suicide
30,6223
Incidents Involving Firearms
29,0001
Homicide
20,3084
Sexual Behaviors
20,0001
All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect
17,0001, 5
Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin
7,6006
Sorry guys, I promise this is my last one tonight.
I have a hard time hearing all these people trash our president when I know, by way of guys like Billy Graham, Tony Evans and several others, who leave the President's presence and declare he is a man of prayer, the real deal, the legite ticket. Those are guys I trust. People blame him for bridges falling and other bullcrap. It literally sickens me to think of all the names he's been called and how his name has been dragged through the mud. Talk about piling on...he's been through it all. And I'm sorry if I can't understand a quick defense of Oprah, yet Bush is fair game. We have never walked one step in his shoes. He is definitely a Christian with the toughest gig in the world and He's made many mistakes and he's done more than we'll ever know for God's kingdom. One of my greatest pet peaves are dads in the stands yelling at a coach AFTER the play. They trash the coach, but never get in the game- they're sideline guys. Bush is really in the game and as Tom Wilson once said "The higher up you get, the more of your ass that shows!" He can't go it alone so I have to ask myself and my friends what have I and what have you contributed? What do we add to society and benefit our communities?
I just believe if you're going to complain, then add a solution. Complaining for complaining sake is worthless.
Just for the record I have seen that exact video long before this blog. I never said I thought Oprah was a saint. If a video like this came out of Bono, would you then condemn him? I am honestly asking, not trying to get an I gotcha. I ask because I have seen this video, again this was 10 years ago (early 90's sometime i believe). I didn't change my opinion of Oprah then and I still dont. I do not look to her for spirtual wisdom or anything, but I have seen way more evidence of a person who knows God than a person who is trying deliberately to turn people away (wolf in sheep's clothing). Maybe I dont hold a high enough standard? If a preacher said things like this I would have a different opinion I admit. I ask this question ... Can someone be a Christian and have questions or doubts about whether Jesus is the only way? Again, I ask sincerely. Part of my pardon with Oprah is that lots of people really struggle with this ... their compassion gets a hold of them and they dont understand the wrath of God. The whole what about the African kid (adult) in a remote village who's never heard of Jesus? I'm not looking for answers although as always, I'd love to hear how God explains this to your heart, but more of a question of salvation. This is where I come from when I personally do not feel equipped to judge the heart of a person, in this instance, Oprah. I have heard her profess Jesus as Lord, seen her attend church services, shes an avid bible reader and quotes scripture all the time, so do I condemn her for a question I have struggled with, especially early in my faith? I mean, 10 years ago I wasn't even walking with the Lord at all. I professed him as Lord, but had some crazy views on some issues. What if she or anyone for that matter were asked about Jesus and they gave their testimony of meeting Jesus and that said that they believed He was God in the flesh sent to redeem us from death. BUT they also said they didn't know about thier Buddist friend and thought that maybe Jesus wasn't the only way, they just were unsure. Obviously, I dont know Oprah, but this is a common struggle amoung Christians. Would you consider all that think this a wolf in sheeps clothing? I am under the belief that even when we stray He will always bring us back to Him. I think its fine to be disappointed in one of God's children, but I personally can't find a place to make a claim about their salvation or really get that frustrated about it, especically in a case where the person is not saying they are preaching the gospel and giving lies instead. Also, Mike made a point tonight (he is not on board with Oprah or anything) about judging a person on the fruit that is produced. I guess its hard for me to think that Oprah is this terrible woman set out to lead people away from God when I see her generosity and how godliness is manifested in her life. I am just telling you where I am coming from.
On the same note but different chord, so to speak. I do now see the danger in false teaching especially when you have a lot of influence and this has convicted me of things I say. James 3:1 says "not many of you should become teachers for you know that we who tach will be judged with greater strictness." I have rethought the Oprah thing, and I agree that she is held to a higher standard because she really influences a lot of people. While she may not have signed up to be a spiritual teacher, she has turned into that for many. For me, I take a lot with a grain of salt, I read all the new age thinking stuff just to read it. God speaks to me all the time through it and it challenges my faith, but many non-believers wont do this. But then again God is God and He can use some crazy new age teaching to lead a non-beleiver straight to Him or not if He so chooses (but we should still scrutinize). I uphold the belief that God pursued me and I had no choice in the matter, so I guess I get laxed with this sort of thing bc I know I could have been watching Oprah (i was) and Olsteen each day, reading every crazy religious philiosophy out there, and God would have still revealed himself to me. I am not excusing my justifications, just throwing my thought process out there.
I'm just glad I am NOT Oprah and my voice is not recorded, as we know that words hold lots of power. Sometimes just as much as our actions.
References to that claim:
Ezekiel 34:1-10, Matt 5:19, Luke 20:46-47, James 3! With that, God's Word stands to correct me that our words as believers are powerful and we will be held accountable. Those of you who believe Oprah is not a Christian, this doesn't matter, as all of these verses refer to US, the body and I include Oprah in that mix! I guess I need to hold her to a higher standard for sure. I just dont want my life and faith judged on a 2 minute soundbite you know? I would be screwed, lol.
I am assuming you are referring to the media and others dragging Bush's name through the mud? I dont recall ever doing that. You just mentioned him along with my defence of Oprah, so I wanted to clarify. I really dont have any beefs with Bush, just think its time for someone new. If anyone's name has been drug through the mud it is definitely Obama and Oprah on this blog and I feel the same, I can't understand why Obama and Oprah are free game to tear apart. Well, I understand Obama as he is applying for big job. This leads to a few scriptures I wanted to share. This was the title of my bible study tonight .. Taming the Tongue! So, classic.
"There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts, but the tongue of the wise brings healing"
"A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger"
A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit"
"The words of a whispererare like delicious morsals; they go down into the inner parts of the body"
"I tell you, on the day of judgement people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned"
Anyone else saying "ouuuch!" God is pretty hilarious sometimes.
sorry its getting late and im tired so im just going to throw out a couple of things before i head off into my land of weird dreams that i have. if a video like that came out with bono saying the same things as oprah i would hold him just as acountable for those things and be as equally disturbed. i dont think anyone is condeming for condeming sake, but it is our duty to correct false teachings, and like you said oprah has a wide range of influence and if she never claimed to be a christian than thats one thing. However millions of women out there believe her to represent a christian, women who are not christians and easily swayed by the next best thing. I understand that we as christians can see through these false new age teachings but millions out there cant and our being decieved into thinking if they just read the right book or write what they want in their lives each morning then they will be fine. that is what is so dangerous about oprah whether she realizes it or not. if she would come on before each show she talks about the self help books and say the only true help is Jesus and these books are just produced by broken lost souls and do not hold the answer. i dont see how she is not convicted to do otherwise. you know grow some cahones and offend some people would be nice to see.
there are a million people who we could talk about it just so happens to be oprah right now, i dont think anyone here holds any hatred towards oprah, obama, clinton or anyone. we should talk more about these people and hold the ones who claim to be christian to a high standard as we should hold eachother to the same standard. but alas my time has come to a close and its off to dreamland, goodnight and god bless us everyone!
oh and one last thing. i had to say something because i think its just divine intervention ;) on yahoo's homepage there is a big article about oprah's new spiritual self help book "new earth" and how many copies its selling. just thought i would throw out that little nugget to chew on thought it was kind of funny.
This blog started with Jesus running for Prez and then we moved onto Obama, and I found myself arguing with Christians on why this guy has direct policies that don't align with God. I debated social and economic issues for the sake of humoring you guys and presenting a case. In other words, it would be an argument I would make to a non christian on why this guy does not fit the bill. Now we haved moved onto freekkkeeen Oprah! Unbelievable! Crystal, I don't doubt that Oprah is a good person and donates a train load to charity every year, but in the name of whom? Ghandi was a great guy, but unfortunatley he is probably roasting right now. I don't think that is being judgemental....it is what it is. I agree with Paul when he said a wolf in sheeps clothing. I think one of Satan's tricks is NOT convincing the world God does not exist, it is distorting who God is and who his son is. I am not saying any of these people are the antichrist but scripture is clear to point out that this person will even fool the elect. That means Christians will be sold on this person and Jews. Tolerance always reminds me of this. I don't think we are dragging people through the mud by saying they have beliefs that are against Christian values. I think that is okay to say, as a matter of fact i think this country would be better off if were weren't so tolerant. Have you noticed that we have slowly tolerated God right out of our laws, sayings, schools, and other things. I officially am retiring from this particular blog, I can't beleive we debated Oprah!
Grant, I know you will come back for more. I just wanted to say how much I have appreciated your input, especially in the beginning! Mike and I really like hearing what you had to say. You are a great person to "discuss" things with. Thanks ;) Oh and the mud thing was brought up by me after Paul mentioned it ONLY because I did not want to be accussed as someone who was dragging anyone through the mud (Bush) In fact, I think you would all agree, I have done my fair share of defending random people. I am SO done! I will only defend Jesus and my best friends and family from now on. I will let Oprah and Obama freakin defend themselves. lol.
I know Mike and I will now always be known as secualr progressive hippies or something. lol. we so aren't.
oh, and Brent, I am reading that book! HAHA. I'll let you know how "out-there" it is.
Here are some ideas for our next topic:
1) What's wrong with kids today? Why is education sucking when so many teachers are trying so hard? Where do kids get this sense of entitlement and how do parents and society fix it?
2) Talk about money management/financial principles for Christians. What does the bible say about money? What do we believe? Aside from tithing and being debt free, how does God want us to use our resources?
Just some ideas.
I'll try to take one question at a time.
First of all, if I saw a video like that of Bono I tell you the truth, I wouldn't listen to his music near as much if ever. I would think he was going straight to hell and I would be heart broken. I can't possibly defend someone who made those type of statements. If Sydney thought there was more than one way to God and she tragically died before me, I would be again heart-broken and think she was in hell. I hate it that Oprah doesn't know the truth or at least, in my humble opinion, doesn't claim it with anymore conviction than she does any other new age philosophy. She went hook, line, and sinker for The Secret. Where is the Holy Spirit's conviction. I am definitely not saying she's not a good person, which is so relative, because Jesus is the only person in history that was good. I just think if you're a seeker, even if you're balled up in sin and a complete mess, that you still know Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and that noone will get to heaven unless they are hook, line and sinker for Him and only Him. The fact that she is on t.v. everyday and people have all these views of her spirituality is one big red flag to most believers. Christ plus anything is nothing and Christ plus nothing is everything. So obviously, my answer to your next question is no, an emphatic NO, you can't claim Christ and wonder if there is another way. That's called agnostism. You either know or you don't know if you belive with your whole heart, mind, and soul. Do people struggle in God's silence and with decisions He makes they don't understand, with death and tragedy? Of course we all do, but we don't fundamantally believe that there may be other avenues than Christ. That new age philosophy is what I was referring to when I said a wolf in sheep's clothing. I think alot of people are used by the enemy to deceive by being deceived themselves. I don't believe she has any other agenda than for everybody to reach God in whatever way works for them. That's sweet, it really is, but it's more dangerous than a Sam Harris or Chris Hitchens who militant atheist with an entirely different agenda. I went to Oprah's own website and clicked Spirit and Self. I read, and in my opinion, ther is absolutely nothing there that would convict her in acourtroom of being a Christian. Do you believe God gave her that position as a Christian so she could spread the good news of self-help, the find-the-inner-you new age philosophy? I'm sorry, it's not a personal attack on you, Crystal, but there's no evidence at all that she is a Christian. I think she believes in Jesus, so to speak, but doesn't consider Him to be the end all that He truly is. For the record if Bono, my daghter, my brother, or any of you thought this way, I would say the exact same thing...you need Jesus!
As far as dragging Bush through the mud, I really wasn't thinking about you when I wrote this. I think of guys like Bill Maher and Keith Olberman. It did surprise me, though to hear you say things like Bush has done this or that or done nothing about this or that when it wasn't true. It wasn't what your word choice, but it was the freedom from which it came without knowing what you were talking about. I know you're a verbal processor, so I get it. This is exactly the place you should feel comfortable doing that. It reminded me of them, and so please know that's who I was referring to. My tone is sharp and abrasive at times. I argue all day with kids, adults, and other bloggers. It gets rough at times, but it doesn't really affect me in apersonal way.
Also, I know you and Mike are absolutely wonderful people! I promise I get it. I can't promise to preface everything with a bunch of I love yous and I hope this doesn't offend anyones. You know, you're in the game, not on the sideline. I know real fighters respect anyone who dares set foot in the cage. There are plenty of people lurking out thereunwilling to put a foot in the ring. I truly respect everyone that does, but when we face each other sometimes I hear "Are you ready to fight? Are you ready to fight? LET'S GET IT ON!"
Sorry I should of said life instead of light.
Mike, great questions! It takes me an eternity to type as I am a seek and destroy kinda typer so I will answer fully later tonight.
As a preview, though, I'm not on board with the whole what's wrong with kids deal and that teachers work so hard stuff.
That's the difference. I do not get on here to destroy anyone. Makes more sense now that I am the one being destroyed.
That is who I am. I defend the underdog and on this blog it happened to not be Bush. My point was only that if one is solely voting for the Pres based on same sex marriage and abortion, in 8 years in office, Abortion is still legal and Gay's were married. I know Bush is a proponent against both, just sadly doesn't have as much control over it as we would like.
For the record, what Oprah is doing is awfully dangerous. The more research I do the more convicted I feel about it. It seems like she has turned away, especially with this new stuff she is promoting.
But, I choose to believe once we are marked with the HOly Spirit, that's it. I guess I just have to believe that for my own sake. Maybe she was NEVER marked, fair enough.
Honestly, I am done with this post. I should have listened to my conscience and done that a long time ago. Huge lesson learned.
Mission Accomplished. I was annilated.
What post are you reading? Destroyed? What the...
Are you joking? Seriously, someone help me with this one. I really don't get it and I need another's perspective. I thought I just commended her for getting in the fight and told her she was wondreful and that I get that she's a verbal processor. The let's get it on was that this is the place to argue, like a cage is a place to fight. Afterwards the respect for one another is greater and the two combatents hug and sing the other's accolades.
Destroyed? Really confused by this one.
Fortunately I had lunch with Ktrina this afternoon and she had figured out the misunderstang. I'm very thankful for her insight because I never would have figured it out on my own. When I said I'm a seek and destroy typer I meant with the keyboard, as in one letter at a time, using only my two pointer fingers. I type very slowly and I lose alot of thought in the process. When I don't edit and just press enter I have multiple grammatical errors.
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and really hope noone else thought I meant I was a seek and destroy my friends kinda guy. That was the farthest thing from my mind- to seek and destroy Crystal. I love arguing points, but I gain no pleasure in trying to destroy my friends who I care about.
I have so much to say but I really have to go. I just knew I had to type something, bc if we are as much alike in some ways as Rachel says, you will check back a few more times today to see if I or anyone else responded. I am late for a baby shower and I have to be there or Rachel might kill me. So this is going to be right off the top of my head brief. I know, impossible right?
Wheeewww! I really thought you meant just that, seek and destroy others arguments. Now that I see that you meant you type like my dad, it makes me laugh. I am sorry. I really thought you meant like you can't type it out now because you take what I/we say and find all the ways to disprove/destroy it. I don't. (verbal processor thing) I'm an emotional "fighter". I would jump in the ring with anyone even if it was a huge mismatch, which is usually the case. As everyone can see, its like I enjoy standing in the corner getting pumulled, blood all over my face while I blindly throw punches hoping to land one or something. It's only after the fight is over that I go and "train" so to speak. So, then, if I step back into the ring with the same circumstance again, I am MUCH more equipped and might have a totally different outlook. If anyone doesn't get that analogy, I'm sure Paul can explain :).
Paul, I never doubted that you don't "like" me or something. There are other reasons why I was extra sensitive this morning too.
I did have another brief post that it doenst look like came through. But, I have apprecited a lot of the "ontheissues" stuff you posted. I have been on that website a LOT and I really like what McCain has to say about Education and other things.
Peace out.
I still got pretty much annilated even if you didn't "intend" to destroy me. LOL. But, I can admit when I get freaking schooled.
Thank you for taking the time to write all that. It is a relief and I will enjoy the night much more after hearing your voice on the matter. I love the analogy- it was perfect and well understood. Please hear my voice when I say I truly respect your willingness to fight, always have. I hope you have a great night with your friends.
It's strange enough to be misunderstood, but really strange for it to take place in front of everyone. I look forward to more conversation, especiaaly one in person.
No problem. We are watching the fights right now ... perfect!
That is exactly how I felt this morning. I felt misunderstood in front of everyone. (Great way to put it!) I had to search my heart for why I felt so upset thinking it was humiliation, or ebarassment, but it wasn't. Like I said, I can be wrong and really dont take myself that seriously, especially when its not something I am extremely passionate about. And politics, come on? Not that sensitive of a topic for me.
I guess I was just ready for the fight to be over so I could "train". And, I have done just that. I have been reading my butt off and researching so I am not blindly throwing punches from the heart anymore. Make sense?
Later.
Thank you both for your vulnerability. You two are my best friends and are both unbelievable thinkers and researchers. This week has truly been a crappy week and I've been overwhelmed with life; the blog has kept me sane if that makes any sense. It kept me grounded in seeking out what I really think about education, abortion, Oprah, all the candidates for president, and anything else that was thrown out there. I even went so far as to read "The No Child Left Behind" Act from beginning to end. Many thoughts have crossed my mind and I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to join in. I know more about all the candidates for presidents than I'd like to; I was even reading Oprah's spiritual chat rooms this morning just to see what was being said on there. I've researched all kinds of topics all week long. Then today my butt read Eccl. 1-3. Everything is meaningless. A chasing after the wind. Solomon had the most valuable wisdom of all: A FULL APPRECIATION OF THE EMPTINESS OF ALL THAT HE HAD-EVEN HIS OWN WISDOM-WHEN COMPARED TO THINGS ETERNAL. My One Year Bible put it like that. I thought it was beautifully written. Here we are trying to seek wisdom and truth and when we ultimately find it, we will find how empty it all is compared to the eternal things. The word "things" always bothers me. Of course it stems from me being an English teacher and that word just drives most English teachers crazy. It's so vague and ambiguous. I just want to know about more "Eternal Things" here on earth. What does living out Heaven on Earth look like, feel like? I've had glimpses of it; it only makes me want it more. I I wonder what "Eternal Things" my friends have experienced?
Thanks again for everyones thoughts and additions. I really appreciated it. I learned so much and am proud to call you my friends. It got me fired up to know more about why I feel, think, and believe what I do. I also realized how much I love this stuff. (Another word English teachers despise)
Crystal and Paul, I love you both so much. I am so thankful that I am on yalls team because I would hate to be the "destroyed" one on the opposing team. "Pick me, pick me, pick me!"
For those who need substance to argue the issues, I thought this might help you make your point on a couple things. This is Obama and The Sermon On The Mount:
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/11569732/
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